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	Comments on: Counter Refutation — Shermer responds to book reviews	</title>
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	<description>How Science and Reason Lead Humanity  Toward Truth, Justice, and Freedom</description>
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		<title>
		By: nestor hernandez		</title>
		<link>https://moralarc.org/counter-refutation-shermer-responds-to-book-reviews/#comment-473</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[nestor hernandez]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jan 2016 20:43:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://moralarc.org/?p=1433#comment-473</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://moralarc.org/counter-refutation-shermer-responds-to-book-reviews/#comment-102&quot;&gt;Bad Boy Scientist&lt;/a&gt;.

You deride Shermer&#039;s vocabulary in the Moral Ac as too esoteric for none experts and yet claim that the word &quot;moral&quot; a word everyone has a on opinion on, has to be changed to something else (esoteric probably). As for your claim that morals is a loaded word, so is values.  Shermer, Pinker, Gould et al. model their speech and writing after Galileo and Darwin who wrote complicated ideas for none experts. Shermer addresses complex ideas by using analogies and thought experiments. The physicist Brian Greene does this very well also.  He can take string theory (understood by a few) and frame it in a way that most people can understand it. 

As for the your claim that the terms &quot;moral&quot; and &quot;science&quot; have done him in, I disagree. Morality is a loaded term that does and should generate discussion.  I say let the best ideas win. And most of the ideas that do win are based on science.  The best definition of science has been put forth by Steven Pinker: &quot;Anyone who engages i secular reasoning&quot;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://moralarc.org/counter-refutation-shermer-responds-to-book-reviews/#comment-102">Bad Boy Scientist</a>.</p>
<p>You deride Shermer&#8217;s vocabulary in the Moral Ac as too esoteric for none experts and yet claim that the word &#8220;moral&#8221; a word everyone has a on opinion on, has to be changed to something else (esoteric probably). As for your claim that morals is a loaded word, so is values.  Shermer, Pinker, Gould et al. model their speech and writing after Galileo and Darwin who wrote complicated ideas for none experts. Shermer addresses complex ideas by using analogies and thought experiments. The physicist Brian Greene does this very well also.  He can take string theory (understood by a few) and frame it in a way that most people can understand it. </p>
<p>As for the your claim that the terms &#8220;moral&#8221; and &#8220;science&#8221; have done him in, I disagree. Morality is a loaded term that does and should generate discussion.  I say let the best ideas win. And most of the ideas that do win are based on science.  The best definition of science has been put forth by Steven Pinker: &#8220;Anyone who engages i secular reasoning&#8221;</p>
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		By: ermesy		</title>
		<link>https://moralarc.org/counter-refutation-shermer-responds-to-book-reviews/#comment-113</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ermesy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Mar 2015 10:37:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://moralarc.org/?p=1433#comment-113</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://moralarc.org/counter-refutation-shermer-responds-to-book-reviews/#comment-111&quot;&gt;Max&lt;/a&gt;.

Would you object to mice being infected with Ebola? So to answer your first question - yes. Why is it immoral to infect one animal but not another if the purpose is to save lives?
Do you object to Jehovah&#039;s Witnesses refusing their children life saving blood transfusions? To answer your second question - yes. People who do not share such beliefs cannot have their health threatened by other people&#039;s beliefs.
To answer your third and fourth questions - no. This is individual responsibility especially for those who overindulge in sugar. Their actions do not impact others.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://moralarc.org/counter-refutation-shermer-responds-to-book-reviews/#comment-111">Max</a>.</p>
<p>Would you object to mice being infected with Ebola? So to answer your first question &#8211; yes. Why is it immoral to infect one animal but not another if the purpose is to save lives?<br />
Do you object to Jehovah&#8217;s Witnesses refusing their children life saving blood transfusions? To answer your second question &#8211; yes. People who do not share such beliefs cannot have their health threatened by other people&#8217;s beliefs.<br />
To answer your third and fourth questions &#8211; no. This is individual responsibility especially for those who overindulge in sugar. Their actions do not impact others.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Greg Gauthier		</title>
		<link>https://moralarc.org/counter-refutation-shermer-responds-to-book-reviews/#comment-112</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Gauthier]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Mar 2015 09:01:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://moralarc.org/?p=1433#comment-112</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The Reign of Terror and Robespierre owe a lot of thanks to Jean-Jacques Rousseau. Robespierre himself regarded Rousseau his intellectual mentor, by way of The Social Contract. If you read that essay, it is chock-a-block full of false assumptions, groundless generalizations, contradictory stereotypes of &quot;savage&quot; man, magical thinking, and outright appeals to violence where his theory fails. 

Rousseau himself was a pretender to the enlightenment, a grifter, a con, a womanizer, and in the end, a stark raving lunatic, consumed by delusions of grandure and a basket load of paranoid conspiracy fantasies (all with him at the center). In some ways, his autobiography reminds me of Gogol&#039;s Diary Of A Madman. 

There are some of us who do indeed blame him (at least in part) for the rise of totalitarian political ideologies in the 19th and 20th century, that cost millions of lives, and decades of despair.

But I fail to see how this one man&#039;s failures could be a legitimate condemnation of the essential value of The Enlightenment as a whole.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Reign of Terror and Robespierre owe a lot of thanks to Jean-Jacques Rousseau. Robespierre himself regarded Rousseau his intellectual mentor, by way of The Social Contract. If you read that essay, it is chock-a-block full of false assumptions, groundless generalizations, contradictory stereotypes of &#8220;savage&#8221; man, magical thinking, and outright appeals to violence where his theory fails. </p>
<p>Rousseau himself was a pretender to the enlightenment, a grifter, a con, a womanizer, and in the end, a stark raving lunatic, consumed by delusions of grandure and a basket load of paranoid conspiracy fantasies (all with him at the center). In some ways, his autobiography reminds me of Gogol&#8217;s Diary Of A Madman. </p>
<p>There are some of us who do indeed blame him (at least in part) for the rise of totalitarian political ideologies in the 19th and 20th century, that cost millions of lives, and decades of despair.</p>
<p>But I fail to see how this one man&#8217;s failures could be a legitimate condemnation of the essential value of The Enlightenment as a whole.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Max		</title>
		<link>https://moralarc.org/counter-refutation-shermer-responds-to-book-reviews/#comment-111</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Max]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Mar 2015 03:25:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://moralarc.org/?p=1433#comment-111</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Public health analogy. Can everyone agree that saving lives from disease is good? Yeah! Can everyone agree that it&#039;s moral to infect monkeys with Ebola to test the Ebola vaccine on them? Hmmm. Can everyone agree that vaccines should be mandatory with no religious or philosophical exemptions? Errrrr. Can everyone agree that peanuts should be banned because some people have severe allergies? Whoa! How about taxing sugary sodas to fight the obesity epidemic and prevent diabetes? Hey now!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Public health analogy. Can everyone agree that saving lives from disease is good? Yeah! Can everyone agree that it&#8217;s moral to infect monkeys with Ebola to test the Ebola vaccine on them? Hmmm. Can everyone agree that vaccines should be mandatory with no religious or philosophical exemptions? Errrrr. Can everyone agree that peanuts should be banned because some people have severe allergies? Whoa! How about taxing sugary sodas to fight the obesity epidemic and prevent diabetes? Hey now!</p>
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		<title>
		By: Max		</title>
		<link>https://moralarc.org/counter-refutation-shermer-responds-to-book-reviews/#comment-110</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Max]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Mar 2015 02:40:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://moralarc.org/?p=1433#comment-110</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://moralarc.org/counter-refutation-shermer-responds-to-book-reviews/#comment-104&quot;&gt;Homo&lt;/a&gt;.

Rape, murder, and theft are consistent parts of nature, so what?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://moralarc.org/counter-refutation-shermer-responds-to-book-reviews/#comment-104">Homo</a>.</p>
<p>Rape, murder, and theft are consistent parts of nature, so what?</p>
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		<title>
		By: unicorndaniel		</title>
		<link>https://moralarc.org/counter-refutation-shermer-responds-to-book-reviews/#comment-109</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[unicorndaniel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Mar 2015 23:18:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://moralarc.org/?p=1433#comment-109</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I&#039;ll check back with you in the 23rd century to see how well you forecasted. On another topic, at one time  in England the death penalty was given for the crime of attempted suicide.Try proposing that today!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ll check back with you in the 23rd century to see how well you forecasted. On another topic, at one time  in England the death penalty was given for the crime of attempted suicide.Try proposing that today!</p>
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		<title>
		By: Gabriel		</title>
		<link>https://moralarc.org/counter-refutation-shermer-responds-to-book-reviews/#comment-108</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Gabriel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Mar 2015 23:01:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://moralarc.org/?p=1433#comment-108</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Science is by far the best tool for morals. The problem is some people can&#039;t separate the term &quot;moral&quot; from mysticism. Maybe using words such as; beneficial, harmful, healthy, unhealthy would make it easier to accept scientific knowledge. But even those words can be up for interpretation. And the only way to make those words more concrete would be to use science.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Science is by far the best tool for morals. The problem is some people can&#8217;t separate the term &#8220;moral&#8221; from mysticism. Maybe using words such as; beneficial, harmful, healthy, unhealthy would make it easier to accept scientific knowledge. But even those words can be up for interpretation. And the only way to make those words more concrete would be to use science.</p>
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		<title>
		By: mormovies		</title>
		<link>https://moralarc.org/counter-refutation-shermer-responds-to-book-reviews/#comment-105</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[mormovies]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Mar 2015 19:31:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://moralarc.org/?p=1433#comment-105</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The mostly harsh criticism of Dr. Shermer&#039;s ideas seem to stem from those (mostly elitist white men) who just despise the fact that the Western Enlightenment even occurred.  They are embarrassed by it and try to minimize it, attributing any horrible post-enlightenment event as evidence to disprove its importance.  Generally, most academics/intellectuals want to believe that &#039;morality&#039; was handed down to us by a divine god or king.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The mostly harsh criticism of Dr. Shermer&#8217;s ideas seem to stem from those (mostly elitist white men) who just despise the fact that the Western Enlightenment even occurred.  They are embarrassed by it and try to minimize it, attributing any horrible post-enlightenment event as evidence to disprove its importance.  Generally, most academics/intellectuals want to believe that &#8216;morality&#8217; was handed down to us by a divine god or king.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Homo		</title>
		<link>https://moralarc.org/counter-refutation-shermer-responds-to-book-reviews/#comment-104</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Homo]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Mar 2015 18:59:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://moralarc.org/?p=1433#comment-104</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[If you can not derive an ought from an is, then you can not derive an ought. Everything is an is. Even if someone takes their morals from the Bible, they will inevitably have to rationalize why they believe the Bible is true and that reason will be based on an is or several ises. I&#039;d like to hear someone present an ought that was not derived from an is. Is there such a thing? 

Even our feelings and intuitions are empirically observed and assessed. And if one were to read a science article or two, they could learn the biologically evolved reason why we have such emotions in the first place. Science can explain verklempt for god&#039;s sake. 

Science has nothing to say on morality? Are you kidding me? Evolutionary biology tells us exactly what morality is. It tells us why we even care about such a thing as right an wrong. It tells us that altruism and self interest are one in the same. That&#039;s amazing news! It tells us that we are all Africans, and race is an illusion. It tells us that homosexuality is consistent part of nature and ubiquitous in the animal kingdom. It tells us that schizophrenics are suffering from a brain disease, not possessed by demons. It tells us which forms of society seem to do well and which ones don&#039;t. I can not believe this is still even a debate. And yet you book is controversial? Even amongst academics? God help us. 

Keep up the good work, Michael. 

PS: I just released a song intended to contribute to this movement. It&#039;s called &quot;The Homo Sapiens Song.&quot; I hope you like it. You can see it on my website.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you can not derive an ought from an is, then you can not derive an ought. Everything is an is. Even if someone takes their morals from the Bible, they will inevitably have to rationalize why they believe the Bible is true and that reason will be based on an is or several ises. I&#8217;d like to hear someone present an ought that was not derived from an is. Is there such a thing? </p>
<p>Even our feelings and intuitions are empirically observed and assessed. And if one were to read a science article or two, they could learn the biologically evolved reason why we have such emotions in the first place. Science can explain verklempt for god&#8217;s sake. </p>
<p>Science has nothing to say on morality? Are you kidding me? Evolutionary biology tells us exactly what morality is. It tells us why we even care about such a thing as right an wrong. It tells us that altruism and self interest are one in the same. That&#8217;s amazing news! It tells us that we are all Africans, and race is an illusion. It tells us that homosexuality is consistent part of nature and ubiquitous in the animal kingdom. It tells us that schizophrenics are suffering from a brain disease, not possessed by demons. It tells us which forms of society seem to do well and which ones don&#8217;t. I can not believe this is still even a debate. And yet you book is controversial? Even amongst academics? God help us. </p>
<p>Keep up the good work, Michael. </p>
<p>PS: I just released a song intended to contribute to this movement. It&#8217;s called &#8220;The Homo Sapiens Song.&#8221; I hope you like it. You can see it on my website.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Bruce Hammond		</title>
		<link>https://moralarc.org/counter-refutation-shermer-responds-to-book-reviews/#comment-103</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bruce Hammond]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Mar 2015 17:17:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://moralarc.org/?p=1433#comment-103</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I really enjoyed the book and this response. My opinion is that this is your best work so far- at least of the nine or ten books of yours that I&#039;ve read.

I&#039;m also impressed that you&#039;ve tempered some of your purist-libertarian leanings over the years. I&#039;m of more of a restrained Capitalist bent because I&#039;m convinced that markets aren&#039;t always efficient and its players are often deceptive and short sighted (at least where &quot;tragedy of the commons&quot; issues are concerned). I do think that you may have glided over some of the implications of the Piketty book. I find the current trend towards concentrating a higher percentage of American wealth in the upper economic echelons to be disturbing because of the pernicious influence that highly concentrated wealth can have on a liberal democracy.

While it&#039;s impossible to take seriously those on the left who advocate anything approaching the confiscatory tax rates of the late 40s and early 50s, there is probably something wrong with the fact that while running for president in 2012, Mitt Romney was paying a lower percentage of his $20 million/year income to the Feds than my wife and I who were earning about $150K. 

When it gets to this point the really big money folks tend to focus their spending on lobbyists and politicians rather than R &#038; D and such because the former offers a higher rate of return.

Anyway, I really didn&#039;t mean to go there. Mostly just wanted to say keep up the good work and thank you.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I really enjoyed the book and this response. My opinion is that this is your best work so far- at least of the nine or ten books of yours that I&#8217;ve read.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m also impressed that you&#8217;ve tempered some of your purist-libertarian leanings over the years. I&#8217;m of more of a restrained Capitalist bent because I&#8217;m convinced that markets aren&#8217;t always efficient and its players are often deceptive and short sighted (at least where &#8220;tragedy of the commons&#8221; issues are concerned). I do think that you may have glided over some of the implications of the Piketty book. I find the current trend towards concentrating a higher percentage of American wealth in the upper economic echelons to be disturbing because of the pernicious influence that highly concentrated wealth can have on a liberal democracy.</p>
<p>While it&#8217;s impossible to take seriously those on the left who advocate anything approaching the confiscatory tax rates of the late 40s and early 50s, there is probably something wrong with the fact that while running for president in 2012, Mitt Romney was paying a lower percentage of his $20 million/year income to the Feds than my wife and I who were earning about $150K. </p>
<p>When it gets to this point the really big money folks tend to focus their spending on lobbyists and politicians rather than R &amp; D and such because the former offers a higher rate of return.</p>
<p>Anyway, I really didn&#8217;t mean to go there. Mostly just wanted to say keep up the good work and thank you.</p>
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