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	Comments on: From Stonewall to Indiana	</title>
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	<description>How Science and Reason Lead Humanity  Toward Truth, Justice, and Freedom</description>
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		<title>
		By: feastfirst (@feastfirst)		</title>
		<link>https://moralarc.org/collision-between-religious-freedom-and-gay-rights/#comment-155</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[feastfirst (@feastfirst)]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Apr 2015 12:04:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://moralarc.org/?p=1694#comment-155</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://moralarc.org/collision-between-religious-freedom-and-gay-rights/#comment-154&quot;&gt;Robert Cole&lt;/a&gt;.

Robert, do you mean property rights as in, infringement of property rights allowed by public accommodation laws that started in 1964?  And the desire to be designated a &quot;protected class&quot; so that one can take advantage of public accommodation laws to violate property rights.  Or do you mean something else?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://moralarc.org/collision-between-religious-freedom-and-gay-rights/#comment-154">Robert Cole</a>.</p>
<p>Robert, do you mean property rights as in, infringement of property rights allowed by public accommodation laws that started in 1964?  And the desire to be designated a &#8220;protected class&#8221; so that one can take advantage of public accommodation laws to violate property rights.  Or do you mean something else?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Robert Cole		</title>
		<link>https://moralarc.org/collision-between-religious-freedom-and-gay-rights/#comment-154</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Robert Cole]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Apr 2015 00:48:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://moralarc.org/?p=1694#comment-154</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[How does no one understand that this is a matter of property rights?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How does no one understand that this is a matter of property rights?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dr. jack L. Edwards		</title>
		<link>https://moralarc.org/collision-between-religious-freedom-and-gay-rights/#comment-152</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dr. jack L. Edwards]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2015 17:40:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://moralarc.org/?p=1694#comment-152</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Michael,

I have been a subscriber to eSkeptic for several years and it is becoming clear to me that you are trading your skeptical credentials for that of an advocate.  Instead of raising important and thoughtful questions that make people think and examine more than one side of an issue, you are advocating for causes. It is difficult to buck the trends, I know, especially the politically correct trends of the day. But that is part of the role of the skeptic.

With regard to the current issue, you might have questioned why India, the world&#039;s largest democracy recently re-criminalized homosexuality, why some 75 other counties have laws against homosexuality, how we are going to come to grips with the significantly higher health risks inarguably associated with homosexuality, how the clash between religious groups and the homosexual lobby will impact our culture, and many other pertinent questions that are legitimate for a skeptic to raise.

Your coverage of this issue, along with other advocacy positions you are taking, e.g., that there is a clear causal relation between CO2 and significant global warming, despite nearly two decades of a hiatus in warming while CO2 emissions have continued to rise, is making me increasingly skeptical of you as a serious, science and cultural skeptic.

To return to the current issue, there seem to be many issues driving wedges into the common identity of Americans. The issue of normalizing homosexuality is one of those and a concern for the true skeptic is what long term impact that will have.  You seem to have answered that question for your readers rather than raising it for thoughtful consideration. An assertion of a different kind that relates broadly to this issue was made by a former advisor to John F. Kennedy as late as the 1990&#039;s. It is worthy of any skeptic&#039;s thoughtful consideration:

“History is littered with states who have tried to combine diverse ethnic or linguistic or religious groups within a single sovereignty…[E]thnic idealogues…have set themselves against the old American idea of assimilation.  They call on the republic to think in terms not of individual but of group identity and to move the polity from individual rights to group rights.…They have done their best to turn a college generation against Europe and the Western tradition.…They have encouraged minorities to see themselves as victims and to live by alibis…They have filled the air with recrimination and rancor and have remarkably advanced the fragmentation of American life.”

                  -- from Arthur Schlesinger&#039;s &quot;The disuniting of America.&quot;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael,</p>
<p>I have been a subscriber to eSkeptic for several years and it is becoming clear to me that you are trading your skeptical credentials for that of an advocate.  Instead of raising important and thoughtful questions that make people think and examine more than one side of an issue, you are advocating for causes. It is difficult to buck the trends, I know, especially the politically correct trends of the day. But that is part of the role of the skeptic.</p>
<p>With regard to the current issue, you might have questioned why India, the world&#8217;s largest democracy recently re-criminalized homosexuality, why some 75 other counties have laws against homosexuality, how we are going to come to grips with the significantly higher health risks inarguably associated with homosexuality, how the clash between religious groups and the homosexual lobby will impact our culture, and many other pertinent questions that are legitimate for a skeptic to raise.</p>
<p>Your coverage of this issue, along with other advocacy positions you are taking, e.g., that there is a clear causal relation between CO2 and significant global warming, despite nearly two decades of a hiatus in warming while CO2 emissions have continued to rise, is making me increasingly skeptical of you as a serious, science and cultural skeptic.</p>
<p>To return to the current issue, there seem to be many issues driving wedges into the common identity of Americans. The issue of normalizing homosexuality is one of those and a concern for the true skeptic is what long term impact that will have.  You seem to have answered that question for your readers rather than raising it for thoughtful consideration. An assertion of a different kind that relates broadly to this issue was made by a former advisor to John F. Kennedy as late as the 1990&#8217;s. It is worthy of any skeptic&#8217;s thoughtful consideration:</p>
<p>“History is littered with states who have tried to combine diverse ethnic or linguistic or religious groups within a single sovereignty…[E]thnic idealogues…have set themselves against the old American idea of assimilation.  They call on the republic to think in terms not of individual but of group identity and to move the polity from individual rights to group rights.…They have done their best to turn a college generation against Europe and the Western tradition.…They have encouraged minorities to see themselves as victims and to live by alibis…They have filled the air with recrimination and rancor and have remarkably advanced the fragmentation of American life.”</p>
<p>                  &#8212; from Arthur Schlesinger&#8217;s &#8220;The disuniting of America.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>
		By: feastfirst (@feastfirst)		</title>
		<link>https://moralarc.org/collision-between-religious-freedom-and-gay-rights/#comment-151</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[feastfirst (@feastfirst)]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2015 17:36:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://moralarc.org/?p=1694#comment-151</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[California&#039;s civil union laws grant gay and straight couples each and every right and privilege of marriage.  All of the demands beyond that have to do with suffering indignities, not violations of rights.  I suffer indignities every day because of who I am and because of what I believe, and because some people are just lunkheads. Somehow, I survive.  A warning for those who are perpetually aggrieved...there will always be indignities.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>California&#8217;s civil union laws grant gay and straight couples each and every right and privilege of marriage.  All of the demands beyond that have to do with suffering indignities, not violations of rights.  I suffer indignities every day because of who I am and because of what I believe, and because some people are just lunkheads. Somehow, I survive.  A warning for those who are perpetually aggrieved&#8230;there will always be indignities.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Cheryl Sailer		</title>
		<link>https://moralarc.org/collision-between-religious-freedom-and-gay-rights/#comment-149</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Cheryl Sailer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2015 16:00:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://moralarc.org/?p=1694#comment-149</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The difference is in your mind only, I don&#039;t see one.  Why?  I&#039;d guess it&#039;s because you want to see a difference.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The difference is in your mind only, I don&#8217;t see one.  Why?  I&#8217;d guess it&#8217;s because you want to see a difference.</p>
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		<title>
		By: S. Jensen		</title>
		<link>https://moralarc.org/collision-between-religious-freedom-and-gay-rights/#comment-148</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[S. Jensen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2015 15:28:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://moralarc.org/?p=1694#comment-148</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[While I agree with the ideas in Mr. Shermer&#039;s article, I wonder how useful the &quot;who you are vs. what you believe&quot; distinction really is in practice. It works in the context of African-American civil rights, because a person&#039;s color does not determine his beliefs. But it&#039;s harder to apply to these &quot;religious freedom&quot; cases. For example, the baker refusing to produce a cake for a gay wedding can argue that his reason has nothing to do with who the customers are, but is only because of their belief that gay people deserve equal marriage rights, a belief that he finds unacceptable. (Could a business use the idea to justify discriminating against Jews, on the same grounds as Shermer&#039;s hypothetical Nazis, because Judaism is a belief system, and nobody is genetically predetermined to adopt the cultural and religious beliefs of Judaism?) Maybe the idea could be developed further in a future article.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I agree with the ideas in Mr. Shermer&#8217;s article, I wonder how useful the &#8220;who you are vs. what you believe&#8221; distinction really is in practice. It works in the context of African-American civil rights, because a person&#8217;s color does not determine his beliefs. But it&#8217;s harder to apply to these &#8220;religious freedom&#8221; cases. For example, the baker refusing to produce a cake for a gay wedding can argue that his reason has nothing to do with who the customers are, but is only because of their belief that gay people deserve equal marriage rights, a belief that he finds unacceptable. (Could a business use the idea to justify discriminating against Jews, on the same grounds as Shermer&#8217;s hypothetical Nazis, because Judaism is a belief system, and nobody is genetically predetermined to adopt the cultural and religious beliefs of Judaism?) Maybe the idea could be developed further in a future article.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Bob Carroll		</title>
		<link>https://moralarc.org/collision-between-religious-freedom-and-gay-rights/#comment-147</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob Carroll]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2015 15:16:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://moralarc.org/?p=1694#comment-147</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[None of this moral progress would have happened without our bill of rights, court rulings, and legislation.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>None of this moral progress would have happened without our bill of rights, court rulings, and legislation.</p>
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		<title>
		By: johnheno		</title>
		<link>https://moralarc.org/collision-between-religious-freedom-and-gay-rights/#comment-146</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[johnheno]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2015 08:40:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://moralarc.org/?p=1694#comment-146</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&quot;what you believe versus who you are&quot; makes the difference, you say. Can you grasp that what people believe makes them who they are. And people are is governed by what they believe. Your are and atheists because of what you believe about non-belief ,And what you believe to make you a non-believer makes you who you an atheist. Meaning, its time to leave your surreal world of verbal gymnastics and join the real world.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;what you believe versus who you are&#8221; makes the difference, you say. Can you grasp that what people believe makes them who they are. And people are is governed by what they believe. Your are and atheists because of what you believe about non-belief ,And what you believe to make you a non-believer makes you who you an atheist. Meaning, its time to leave your surreal world of verbal gymnastics and join the real world.</p>
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